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Tankanator
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Post by Tankanator »

Just wanted to point out also the Blacks themselves never reached Nation status not even on the African continent before they were shipped to USA
They lived in pre-nation communities and even in some cases tribal primitive-communist communities

The fact they can magically turn into a nation having (in one or two generations) lost all their languages, common culture, never having a common economic life or a territory is one magical wand of Marxism 🪄🎩
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Post by thenextstalin »

Tankanator wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:48 pm Just wanted to point out also the Blacks themselves never reached Nation status not even on the African continent before they were shipped to USA
They lived in pre-nation communities and even in some cases tribal primitive-communist communities

The fact they can magically turn into a nation having (in one or two generations) lost all their languages, common culture, never having a common economic life or a territory is one magical wand of Marxism 🪄🎩
Adding this and this following quote from JoeySteel:
JoeySteel wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:38 am For instance they claim that England, Wales and Scotland are nations and lean in this favour. Yet reputable Marxist-Leninist orgs have always consistently held that these peoples never reached the classification of "Nation" and by the time Nationhood was achieved in Britain there existed the British nation
The concept of "reaching" the classification of a nation should be done away with. Nations either exist or they don't, and they clearly do. You can classify nations, but this idea of "reaching" to become a nation shouldn't be a thing. The national question and negro question discussions in America wasted a lot of time trying to "prove" the Black-English Nation existed with topics like culture and economics. But it really doesn't make sense. I live in California, and I used to live in the south in Georgia. I can tell you white people here and in Georgia have different cultures, but that doesn't make them different nations. So the MAC is right in removing criterias like land/territory, culture, and economics.

Now we can easily see the errors in Stalin's thinkings when he wrote the original national question. But he still had enough foresight to say that the national question could change. This is that change now provided by the MAC.

It's not magic that turns someone into a different nation. It's learning a new language, which happens all the time. If an immigrant moves to America and their kids only learn English, then that's a nation changing in basically one generation. So time shouldn't be a factor either.
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Post by MichaelLanne »

Tankanator wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:48 pm Just wanted to point out also the Blacks themselves never reached Nation status not even on the African continent before they were shipped to USA
They lived in pre-nation communities and even in some cases tribal primitive-communist communities

The fact they can magically turn into a nation having (in one or two generations) lost all their languages, common culture, never having a common economic life or a territory is one magical wand of Marxism 🪄🎩
Your argument is so weird for me because, to make it work, you need to use all characteristics of Stalin’s definition except one : the historical constitution, while this is the most obvious one.

With only the appearance, you see the historical background of each nation, from what continent each nations comes from, from what oppression each nations comes from, the history of segregation,…

After historical constitution and language, all characteristics become at best secondary, at worst absurd… For example, would you consider DPRK and ROK as different nations? They have way different economic life, culture, etc…? There is a reason why comrade Kim Jong-Un explained this http://www.korean-books.com.kp/KBMbooks ... 094923.pdf :
The first criterion for characterizing a nation is its lineage and the second one is language.


I.e took only the two most important characteristics of Stalinist definition : language and historical constitution.
Last edited by MichaelLanne on Mon May 29, 2023 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Tankanator
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Post by Tankanator »

MichaelLanne wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:05 pm
Tankanator wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:48 pm Just wanted to point out also the Blacks themselves never reached Nation status not even on the African continent before they were shipped to USA
They lived in pre-nation communities and even in some cases tribal primitive-communist communities

The fact they can magically turn into a nation having (in one or two generations) lost all their languages, common culture, never having a common economic life or a territory is one magical wand of Marxism 🪄🎩
For example, would you consider DPRK and ROK as different nations? They have way different economic life, culture, etc…?
Good post com and welcome also.

I will check out that book

Korean nation was formed by 1945

There was a Korean people's for a thousand years prior and in the formation of the People's Republic of Korea in 1945 it was imperialism that tore that nation in two, declared a military dictatorship where the official language was English using the greatest bag of scum for their new State (the japanese-now American collaborators)

As for Rok having different culture this is completely artificial and why they have such high suicide rates among children and 0.78 birth rate and their economy is only separate in regard to however many thousands of US soldiers are occupying southern Korean puppet state. With disappearance of imperialism the Korean nation will be whole again

This is same as the northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland

This is vastly different to Blacks who came from a million different pre-nations or outright tribes, who lost their languages within a generation, shared no culture (as the tribes has different cultures) and shared no shared history
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Post by MichaelLanne »


It's a writing group: https://mac417773233.wordpress.com/

Nobody else in the world is talking about this stuff. To dismiss it completely is foolish. Anyone not considering these ideas after reading them doesn't know a good idea when they see one.
I know of and actually quite like MAC. They run the reddit.com/r/EuropeanSocialists subreddit.

In my humble opinion they lean right opportunist in regard to the National Question leading them into the morass of 'nation' fixation and even questions of race (which OP seems to be and other MAC members have like Frogsknect who once put out a tweet about "mixed race people not faring well as they could not be loyal to their nation").
This opportunism is almost forgiveable with todays cosmopolitanism but it's a deviation from Stalinist centre either way.

For instance they claim that England, Wales and Scotland are nations and lean in this favour. Yet reputable Marxist-Leninist orgs have always consistently held that these peoples never reached the classification of "Nation" and by the time Nationhood was achieved in Britain there existed the British nation
As a MAC member myself (this is how I discovered this forum from the use of our website’s URL), I am surprised, because from all the controversial things we said, this is the one we never said which was used as an example.
Scotland is essentially dead, its language being completely killed off, same for Ireland, which will be soon integrated into Anglo Nation.
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Post by JoeySteel »

thenextstalin wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:57 pm
Tankanator wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:48 pm Just wanted to point out also the Blacks themselves never reached Nation status not even on the African continent before they were shipped to USA
They lived in pre-nation communities and even in some cases tribal primitive-communist communities

The fact they can magically turn into a nation having (in one or two generations) lost all their languages, common culture, never having a common economic life or a territory is one magical wand of Marxism 🪄🎩
Adding this and this following quote from JoeySteel:
JoeySteel wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:38 am For instance they claim that England, Wales and Scotland are nations and lean in this favour. Yet reputable Marxist-Leninist orgs have always consistently held that these peoples never reached the classification of "Nation" and by the time Nationhood was achieved in Britain there existed the British nation
The concept of "reaching" the classification of a nation should be done away with. Nations either exist or they don't, and they clearly do. You can classify nations, but this idea of "reaching" to become a nation shouldn't be a thing. The national question and negro question discussions in America wasted a lot of time trying to "prove" the Black-English Nation existed with topics like culture and economics. But it really doesn't make sense. I live in California, and I used to live in the south in Georgia. I can tell you white people here and in Georgia have different cultures, but that doesn't make them different nations. So the MAC is right in removing criterias like land/territory, culture, and economics.

Now we can easily see the errors in Stalin's thinkings when he wrote the original national question. But he still had enough foresight to say that the national question could change. This is that change now provided by the MAC.
Reaching stage of nation is a historical development, as Stalin says because a
nation is not merely a historical category but a historical category belonging to a definite epoch, the epoch of rising capitalism
https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /03/18.htm
It's not magic that turns someone into a different nation. It's learning a new language, which happens all the time. If an immigrant moves to America and their kids only learn English, then that's a nation changing in basically one generation. So time shouldn't be a factor either.
If you think this then how can you possibly reconcile a "black" (and "white") nation
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JoeySteel
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Post by JoeySteel »

Further, you mentioned about waving a "white genocide banner"
But under imperialism all nations are committing suicide because the Imperialist bourgeoisie are Malthusians pursuing a depopulation agenda.

Look at birth rates in Japan (or as Tank pointed out), ROK, USA, Germany etc
That 'genocide' is being waged by Whites on Whites
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Post by thenextstalin »

Tankanator wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:38 pm As for Rok having different culture this is completely artificial and why they have such high suicide rates among children and 0.78 birth rate and their economy is only separate in regard to however many thousands of US soldiers are occupying southern Korean puppet state. With disappearance of imperialism the Korean nation will be whole again

This is same as the northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland

This is vastly different to Blacks who came from a million different pre-nations or outright tribes, who lost their languages within a generation, shared no culture (as the tribes has different cultures) and shared no shared history
I don't know how you can say it's artificial. ROK's culture is basically western culture, but it exists. It's real.

Anyone can change their culture, economic life, and land where they live. But appearance and language are more concrete. People can change their language too, but the primary/mother tongue is the criteria for determining that, so that's pretty concrete too.

If your offspring only learn a new language, then they belong to a different nation. The parent who moves to a new country will always be just assimilating, but the kids will have officially changed their nations with the new language.
JoeySteel wrote: Reaching stage of nation is a historical development, as Stalin says because a
nation is not merely a historical category but a historical category belonging to a definite epoch, the epoch of rising capitalism
https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /03/18.htm
It's not magic that turns someone into a different nation. It's learning a new language, which happens all the time. If an immigrant moves to America and their kids only learn English, then that's a nation changing in basically one generation. So time shouldn't be a factor either.
If you think this then how can you possibly reconcile a "black" (and "white") nation
I think the MAC is working on something about how nations have always existed. My personal view is that as long as languages have existed then nations have existed. I don't believe in the whole tribe or religion dividers.

That post was an incomplete example. Here's a complete one:

People who move to a new country and learn a new language or have a different appearance will always be just assimilating. Their mother tongue/primary/first language and appearance is the nation they belong to. But their offspring who only learn the new nation's language will be official or close to it depending on the appearance. This is the way people can change their languages and appearance. They can change their common appearance by marrying into the new common appearance. That will take a few generations depending on the common appearance in question.

So you can change your nation, but the concrete dividers such as first language and appearance are what separate nations. They're harder to change. And we need dividers in place so separate nations can form their own independent countries, so humans stop taking advantage of each other. With imperialism, and within (Anglos filling up prisons with black people).
JoeySteele wrote: Further, you mentioned about waving a "white genocide banner"
But under imperialism all nations are committing suicide because the Imperialist bourgeoisie are Malthusians pursuing a depopulation agenda.

Look at birth rates in Japan (or as Tank pointed out), ROK, USA, Germany etc
That 'genocide' is being waged by Whites on Whites
It is white on white. Most of the imperialists are white, they care more about money than preserving their nation. A capitalist only cares about money. Not race, identity, religion, nation, etc. They want to decrease the majority population first so the majority doesn't overthrow them. It's why you see white pride discouraged but black and Latino pride are encouraged. I mentioned in the program that right now Anglos are being vilified because they're the majority. If another nation achieves the majority then they'll be vilified next. My priority in the program was to focus on the Anglo nation cause it's what this party is based on.

The imperialists do want to decrease the global population in general though. Maybe I should mention that in the AI section. If you guys would join the party you could help me with these specifics and the program would be a lot more thorough. Doing all this as one person is tough, I miss things or I can be wrong about things too.
Last edited by thenextstalin on Mon May 29, 2023 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by JoeySteel »

MichaelLanne wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:45 pm
As a MAC member myself (this is how I discovered this forum from the use of our website’s URL), I am surprised, because from all the controversial things we said, this is the one we never said which was used as an example.
Scotland is essentially dead, its language being completely killed off, same for Ireland, which will be soon integrated into Anglo Nation.
You are a MAC member?
That's great. I hope you stick around :Lkiss
I only pick this as an example as it was one I remembered
But MAC does definitely support bourgeois nationalism in Britain (obviously Northern Ireland is part of Irish nation)


But like the Ukrainians(who collaborated with Nazis) and the Uyghurs (descendants of a stranded Turkic army in Xinjiang that have sided with every invader against China for their own State, who have recently abandoned Uyghur culture in favour of Gulf State islamism)...
The Scottish Nationalists were(and still are) most ratlike imperialists and trying to collaborate during ww2
The interceptions by British code breakers revealed that communications between the head of the German legation in Dublin and his superiors in Berlin included a memorandum, received on August 15, 1943, from a group known as the Scottish Independent Movement.

The memo contained proposals for a German Scottish alliance "as a weapon in the fight against the gross materialism of the capitalistic-communistic union of English, Americans, Bolsheviks etc".
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may ... humanities

If Scottish Nationalists ever genuinely rose to Statehood they would do it collaboration with another imperialist power and become pure reaction just as the Ukrainians did in OUN and sign up for Einzatsgruppen and had to base their entire nationalism on ethnic chauvinism and a death cult
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Post by JoeySteel »

Also can you let me know how you heard of this site? We have been low key so far but if it is spread out a bit I will have to pull my thumb out my arse and finish a lot of the megaposts
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Post by thenextstalin »

JoeySteel wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:29 pm Also can you let me know how you heard of this site? We have been low key so far but if it is spread out a bit I will have to pull my thumb out my arse and finish a lot of the megaposts
Some guy named "CombatDegeneracy" posted a link to this site on r/europeansocialists

www.reddit.com/r/EuropeanSocialists/com ... 2/jgzvc8f/
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Post by LinusBorvalds »

MichaelLanne wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:45 pm
It's a writing group: https://mac417773233.wordpress.com/
Just checked out their webpage and at least they're against bourgeois decadence
Screenshot_2023-05-29-19-52-14-304-edit_org.mozilla.firefox.jpg
Screenshot_2023-05-29-19-52-14-304-edit_org.mozilla.firefox.jpg (1.04 MiB) Viewed 2414 times
And as for Korea those scum will sign eventually. Long live dprk and reunification!
DPRK cease fire painting.jpg
DPRK cease fire painting.jpg (101.63 KiB) Viewed 2414 times
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Post by thenextstalin »

Most communists in imperialist countries believe social liberal freedoms are progressive. Parties like the CPUSA are working for the imperialists so they know better, they're consciously being evil when they promote LGBT.

But a lot of liberal communists don't know better. Here's an article I read from Midwestern Marx about how they think class struggle pushed the imperialists to adopt social liberal policies like LGBT.

www.midwesternmarx.com/articles/the-202 ... -khrachvik

I think these people will only get the message when the population rates reach a critical low. Suddenly banning LGBT/abortion will make sense to them and they'll see these policies for the evils they are.

Also LinusBorvalds, why did you change the quote to say MichaelLane wrote that post that the MAC is a writing group lol?
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Post by LinusBorvalds »

thenextstalin wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:03 pm Also LinusBorvalds, why did you change the quote to say MichaelLane wrote that post that the MAC is a writing group lol?
Oh I click quote on Michael's post above (which was quoting you) and removed the other stuff to focus just on that sentence 😂
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Post by Isabelle »

thenextstalin wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:32 pm
JoeySteel wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:29 pm Also can you let me know how you heard of this site? We have been low key so far but if it is spread out a bit I will have to pull my thumb out my arse and finish a lot of the megaposts
Some guy named "CombatDegeneracy" posted a link to this site on r/europeansocialists

www.reddit.com/r/EuropeanSocialists/com ... 2/jgzvc8f/
chat tonight
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Post by Gemini »

Charlotte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:10 pm Btw just in case on the absolute 1 in a million chance this is not a troll (and for anyone else reading this generally)
Majority of us here reject the theory of the "Black" (and therefore "white") Nation in anglo countries
Reasoning is expounded here

https://espressostalinist.com/2020/10/0 ... the-u-s-a/
Holy smokes that fucking article slays (char posted so I knew I had to read)
Just got to this bit..
But Foster still was a key member and secured an interview with Stalin. He claimed that Stalin had supported him. As we shall see this was not correct, in writings made available in 1929.

At the Sixth Congress, the resistance of the Americans to the critiques on “American Exceptionalism,” were to be dealt with again. In the meantime, James Cannon had discovered Trotskyism and so was born American Trotskyism. And the Negro Nation line was put.
Holy fucking shit. The Anglo line of black nation was put down in USA by a petite-booj individualist like Foster (who advocated a birth strike!!!) and a fucking Trotskyite
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TemperedSteel
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Post by TemperedSteel »

I know MAC
Quite good on a lot of stuff but they are hyper focused on Right of Nations To Self Determination

Remember, Ukraine is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life and psychological make-up, manifested in a common culture.
Or take the Ukraine. At the beginning of the century, before the tomfoolery of “Ukrainian nationalism” with its silver rubles and its “Universals”[2] and Lenin’s hobby of an “independent Ukraine” had been invented, the Ukraine was the stronghold of the Russian revolutionary movement. From there, from Rostov, from Odessa, from the Donetz region, flowed out the first lava-streams of the revolution (as early as 1902-04) which kindled all South Russia into a sea of flame, thereby preparing the uprising of 1905. The same thing was repeated in the present revolution, in which the South Russian proletariat supplied the picked troops of the proletarian phalanx. Poland and the Baltic lands have been since 1905 the mightiest and most dependable hearths of revolution, and in them the socialist proletariat has played an outstanding role.

How does it happen then that in all these lands the counter-revolution suddenly triumphs? The nationalist movement, just because it tore the proletariat loose from Russia, crippled it thereby, and delivered it into the hands of the bourgeoisie of the border countries.

Instead of acting in the same spirit of genuine international class policy which they represented in other matters, instead of working for the most compact union of the revolutionary forces throughout the area of the Empire, instead of defending tooth and nail the integrity of the Russian Empire as an area of revolution and opposing to all forms of separatism the solidarity and inseparability of the proletarians in all lands within the sphere of the Russian Revolution as the highest command of politics, the Bolsheviks, by their hollow nationalistic phraseology concerning the “right of self-determination to the point of separation,” have accomplished quite the contrary and supplied the bourgeoisie in all border states with the finest, the most desirable pretext, the very banner of the counter-revolutionary efforts. Instead of warning the proletariat in the border countries against all forms of separatism as mere bourgeois traps, they did nothing but confuse the masses in all the border countries by their slogan and delivered them up to the demagogy of the bourgeois classes. By this nationalistic demand they brought on the disintegration of Russia itself, pressed into the enemy’s hand the knife which it was to thrust into the heart of the Russian Revolution.

To be sure, without the help of German imperialism, without “the German rifle butts in German fists,” as Kautsky’s Neue Zeit put it, the Lubinskys and other little scoundrels of the Ukraine, the Erichs and Mannerheims of Finland, and the Baltic barons, would never have gotten the better of the socialist masses of the workers in their respective lands. But national separatism was the Trojan horse inside which the German “comrades,” bayonet in hand, made their entrance into all those lands. The real class antagonisms and relations of military force brought about German intervention. But the Bolsheviks provided the ideology which masked this campaign of counter-revolution; they strengthened the position of the bourgeoisie and weakened that of the proletariat.

The best proof is the Ukraine, which was to play so frightful a role in the fate of the Russian Revolution. Ukrainian nationalism in Russia was something quite different from, let us say, Czechish, Polish or Finnish nationalism in that the former was a mere whim, a folly of a few dozen petty-bourgeois intellectuals without the slightest roots in the economic, political or psychological relationships of the country; it was without any historical tradition, since the Ukraine never formed a nation or government, was without any national culture, except for the reactionary-romantic poems of Shevschenko. It is exactly as if, one fine day, the people living in the Wasserkante[3] should want to found a new Low-German (Plattdeutsche) nation and government! And this ridiculous pose of a few university professors and students was inflated into a political force by Lenin and his comrades through their doctrinaire agitation concerning the “right of self-determination including etc.” To what was at first a mere farce they lent such importance that the farce became a matter of the most deadly seriousness – not as a serious national movement for which, afterward as before, there are no roots at all, but as a shingle and rallying flag of counter-revolution! At Brest, out of this addled egg crept the German bayonets.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemb ... n/ch03.htm
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Post by thenextstalin »

I posted in the first page of this thread that Russia has every right to take Ukraine because they speak the same language. And they look the same as Russians. Russia is still a multinational country that needs to let the other nations inside of it go though.

And we've discussed that Stalin's original national question is flawed.

- A person who relocates to another land doesn't suddenly lose their nationality.

- There are multiple cultures in the U.S. among Anglos in the south and in the west, they are not different nations just because of culture.

- People already live in different economic situations just by making more or less money than one another.

The only things that have any concrete basis for nationality are language and appearance. Those can be changed too, but they're harder to change and someone's first language determines their their nationality so there's a clause for that makes sense there. Even then the majority of people can't adopt a perfect accent, so it's a clear tell that someone is from a different nation when they have an accent. Appearance is also a clear tell someone is from a different nation.

That's all this is, dividers to tell who belongs to what nation. Nations need to be independent to reach internationalism. And they need to be independent to prevent chauvinism from rearing its ugly head like it always does in multinational countries.
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Post by TemperedSteel »

My post was actually more about Rosa Luxembourg raking Lenin over the coals over ultra left position on a rigid Right of Self Determination which led to the disaster of Ukraine during the Civil War and German collaboration by Ukrainian bourgeois. The Ukrainian 'nation' was stitched together by German-comprador gibberish. The same for Belarus where the White-Red-White flag used by reactionaries only popped up during 1918-1921 German occupation, Nazi occupation and collapse of Soviet Union.
Much in the same way NATO has attempted to create a new Hong Kong and Taiwan 'nation' from whole-cloth for purposes of maintenance of US empire.
And as they are doing in Ukraine.

You can already see how the US is trying to stitch together a 'Nation' only slightly less reactionary than the horrific worship of Stepan Bandera and his merry band of holocaust collaborators by trying to infuse the Ukraine 'nation' with Pagan/Viking fascist runic symbology rather than the straight up retarded holocaust collaborator worship by getting them to burn viking long boats.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rades.html

Quite the turn around from Bandera's Christianity but the US empire is officially "anti-nazi" and it becomes quite difficult to explain how the US is funding Nazi's wearing Sonnerands whilst Nazi's wearing Sonnerands are engaged in mass murder in USA
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Ukrainian nationalism never should've been allowed to turn into the beast it became (ie. the ethnic hatred ideological foundations of Simon Petliura then Stepan Bandera and his merry band of holocaust collaborators) and it never would have if Lenin hadn't followed an ultra-left position on National Question in regard to Ukraine

Lenin responded angrily to Rosa but ,nevertheless, a year later Lenin put this in the party program effectively superseding his original formulation of nations rights to self determination
The All-Russian Communist Party regards the question as to who expresses the desire of a nation for separation, from a historical-class point of view , taking into consideration the level of historical development of any given nation: whether the nation is passing from medievalism toward bourgeois democracy or from bourgeois democracy toward soviet or pro-letarian democracy, etc.
In any case, particular care and attention must be exercised by the proletariat of those nations which were oppressing nations, toward the remnants of national feelings of the working masses of the oppressed or dependant nations. Only by such a policy is it possible to create favourable conditions for a voluntary and real unity of different national elements of the international proletariat, as has been proved by the experiment of the union of several national Soviet republics around Soviet Russia.
page 74
In other words, the right of self determination, as any other bourgeois right, could only take precedent when taking into account proletarian class rule and it's democracy against bourgeois rule.

Even Stalin stated, even if there is a nation, not all nations are strategically defensible from working class pespective
“A nation has the right to arrange its life on autonomous lines. It even the has the right to secede. But this does not mean that it should do so under all circumstances, that autonomy or separation, will everywhere and always be advantageous for a nation; ie. For its majority, ie for the toiling strata. The Transcacausian Tartars as a nation may assemble , let us say, in their Diet and succumbed to the influence of their beys and mullahs, decide to restore the old order of things and to secede from the state. According to the meaning of the clause on self-determination they are fully entitled to do so. But will this be in the interest of the toiling strata of the Tartar nation? Can Marxists look on indifferently when the beys and mullahs assume the leadership of the masses in the solution of the national question?.. Should not Marxist come forward with a definite plan for the solution of the question, a plan which would be most advantageous for the Tartar masses?.. But what solution would be most compatible with the interests of the toiling masses? Autonomy, federation or separation? All these are problems the solution of which will depend on the concrete historical conditions in which the given nation finds itself.. Conditions like everything else change, and a decision which is correct at one particular time may prove to be entirely unsuitable at another.”
Stalin, Marxism and National Question

Whilst showing autonomy and federation could be in more of the interest of the toiling masses in different circumstances
But what solution would be most compatible with the interests of the toiling masses? Autonomy, federation or separation?
All these are problems the solution of which will depend on the concrete historical conditions in which the given nation finds itself.
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Post by thenextstalin »

The reality is you have to let nations develop at their own pace. Engles stated there is no social progress without national independence. Everything else be damned.

And Marx stated internationalism can only be achieved among independent nations. By denying self-determination you're trying to take a shortcut to internationalism.

Ukraine isn't a nation so they can't really secede. You have to actually be a separate nation to self-determine.

In the cases of splits between communists and capitalists countries like Korea, Albania, and Germany, it's progress if half the nation turns communist. Their goal should always be to merge back as one communist nation though. In this case the capitalist sides are reactionary.

Doesn't really matter what Lenin or Stalin or anyone in the past thought. For all their theories you've posted I don't see any practical solutions. Failing the national question was a big part of why the USSR failed. They were wrong. If we keep trying to hold nations prisoner in the name of communism we're not advancing as a society. Look at where we are today, communist Eastern Europe is no more.

If you want to have at it trying to force communism/social progress you need to somehow guarantee national independence in the end. Which I don't even know how you would do really. Nothing's written in stone so there are some rules you can probably break, you just have to be sure it'll work.
Last edited by thenextstalin on Tue May 30, 2023 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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