New Party

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thenextstalin
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New Party

Post by thenextstalin »

Starting a new party in the U.S., if anyone wants to read the program and possibly join PM me. It'll be called the Anglo-English Communist Party, so if any Anglos are in the U.S./Canada/UK/Aus/NZ and want to set up sister parties with the same party lines message me too. This will go a long way to connecting all these countries as one nation.
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Tankanator
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Post by Tankanator »

Welcome

Post the party program here :Lwecan
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Post by thenextstalin »

Ok, but please delete this after like a month. I don't want an unfinished draft of the program floating around the internet.

Edit - I guess I can always edit my post to remove the link so no need to delete.
Last edited by thenextstalin on Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:59 pm, edited 53 times in total.
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Post by JoeySteel »

Thanks Comrade I'll have a read.

We do have a gigantic word count on Posts here (100,000 characters per post)

Which have led to articles in ridiculous size like below

viewtopic.php?t=164

So feel free to post the content in a thread at anypoint
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Post by LinusBorvalds »

Welcome comrade

I like the idea but I find online organising to be impractical compared to irl organising

I find the content of online organising is different also. The disconnection from the masses can lead to a lot of ultra leftism

But this is just my 2 pence!
:Lcheers
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Post by thenextstalin »

LinusBorvalds wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 4:32 pm Welcome comrade

I like the idea but I find online organising to be impractical compared to irl organising

I find the content of online organising is different also. The disconnection from the masses can lead to a lot of ultra leftism

But this is just my 2 pence!
:Lcheers
I'm mainly looking for founders right now, not really regular members, so trying to find anomalies wherever I can because this is a really divisive program.

Worst case scenario is I launch the party on my own and basically run it till 1,000 members are reached if I can't trust anyone to be in the central committee. Once that figure is reached anyone can run for any position in the party. I've made the constitution pretty solid in terms of stopping people from deviating away from party lines. Nobody can alter the core program and rules, so even if untrustworthy people achieve a central committee position there isn't much they can do to undermine the party. Even saying anything that contradicts party lines is grounds for removal. If I have to hold up a sign stating "Stop Anglo-English/White-English genocide" to start off on my own I'll do it. But I don't think I'll have trouble finding attracting members down the road, malleable newcomers will probably agree.

The funny thing about all this is I've sent the program to all the parties in the U.S. telling them to close down their multinational parties. And even the CPGB-ML. I've even sent it to various ANTIFA groups asking them why aren't they fighting the communists parties who have self-determination in their programs since they basically want to split the U.S. by race too. Even pointing out that African People's Socialist Party only allows black people in their party. Most of them have all conveniently ignored me because anyone who reads this program and believe in self-determination but doesn't agree with it knows they're being hypocrites. A white nationalist communist party including language as a divider is going to change things in the world.
Last edited by thenextstalin on Wed May 31, 2023 9:13 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by JoeySteel »

Having read some of the party program I can only assume this is a bit
If I have to hold up a sign stating "Stop Anglo-English/White-English genocide" to start off on my own I'll do it.
10/10 bit

:trollstalin
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Post by Charlotte »

Well this was certainly a more thought out troll than most so credit where credit is due

It reads like a 4channer writing a communist ChatpGPT manifesto
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Post by thenextstalin »

JoeySteel wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:40 pm Having read some of the party program I can only assume this is a bit
If I have to hold up a sign stating "Stop Anglo-English/White-English genocide" to start off on my own I'll do it.
10/10 bit
It's not, I plan to do it lol. The Anglo population is decreasing in the U.S., google it, and white genocide is real in general. It's up in the air if the Anglos or white people in other countries will go extinct, who knows what will happen in the future, but I can't go in this thing halfway by avoiding the topic. Assume the worst, hope for the best.
Charlotte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:58 pm Well this was certainly a more thought out troll than most so credit where credit is due

It reads like a 4channer writing a communist ChatpGPT manifesto
It's not a troll. I'm being serious. I don't know what makes you think that. If it's because of the simplistic or populist language then that's on purpose because it's written to attract newcomers, but it also has a lot of advanced topics, especially about anti-imperialism, that most communists in general don't know. It's still a masterclass considering 99% of the communists in the world are supporting Russia for the wrong reasons. They're right to support Russia, but not because of anti-imperialism, but because Ukraine speaks the same language, and Russia has every right to merge Ukraine. For example, following the Party's lines, if it was Finland being invaded, you would support Finland's immediate survival instead of Russia's anti-imperialism. If anything, this program isn't simple enough.
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Post by Charlotte »

Btw just in case on the absolute 1 in a million chance this is not a troll (and for anyone else reading this generally)
Majority of us here reject the theory of the "Black" (and therefore "white") Nation in anglo countries
Reasoning is expounded here

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=239
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Post by thenextstalin »

Charlotte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:10 pm Btw just in case on the absolute 1 in a million chance this is not a troll (and for anyone else reading this generally)
Majority of us here reject the theory of the "Black" (and therefore "white") Nation in anglo countries
Reasoning is expounded here

https://espressostalinist.com/2020/10/0 ... the-u-s-a/
Ok, then this program will be lost on you guys.

The article makes an analysis mistake though.

--

> “The white population of the US makes up 88.7% of the total and of this figure 74.3% are Americans and only 14.4% foreign born, ie, immigrants. We know that the especially favourable conditions for the development of capitalism and the rapidity of this development have produced a situation in which vast national differences are speedily and fundamentally, as nowhere else in the world, smoothed out to form a single ‘American’ nation.”

(Lenin; From “Statistics and Sociology”; Ibid; p. 306).

THIS VIEWPOINT OF LENIN’S, AS EXPRESSED IN THESE WORKS CITED BY HAYWOOD; IS NOT FOR A BLACK NATION – AS IS PRESENTED BY HAYWOOD AND OTHERS.

--

This is wrong. This excerpt by Lenin is in fact for a Black Nation, and an Anglo Nation.

Lenin is stating that capitalism itself is smoothing out national differences because it's rapidly advancing, i.e. becoming more wealthy. The high pay is making people integrate into a multinational country. Once the high pay runs out, these nations will not want to stay together anymore.

And the mere mention of "national differences" states that these groups are indeed separate nations.
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Post by Gemini »

I have to ask...what's is "MACism"?
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Post by thenextstalin »

Gemini wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:04 pm I have to ask...what's is "MACism"?
It's a writing group: https://mac417773233.wordpress.com/

Most of this program is based on their theories. MACism itself isn't really a thing yet, but it will be once this Party launches. I wrote the whole thing so the viewpoint is based on my writing, and there are some theories that were personally made by me in the program, but the bulk of it is from the MAC and various revolutionaries (Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Kim's).

I'm not affiliated with the MAC in any way.

There's some really rare new policies from the MAC in this program like removing the land/territory, economics, and culture from the national question because they would wrongly split nations.

Nobody else in the world is talking about this stuff. To dismiss it completely is foolish. Anyone not considering these ideas after reading them doesn't know a good idea when they see one.
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Post by JoeySteel »

thenextstalin wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:09 pm
Gemini wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:04 pm I have to ask...what's is "MACism"?
It's a writing group: https://mac417773233.wordpress.com/

Most of this program is based on their theories. MACism itself isn't really a thing yet, but it will be once this Party launches. I wrote the whole thing so the viewpoint is based on my writing, and there are some theories that were personally made by me in the program, but the bulk of it is from the MAC and various revolutionaries (Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Kim's).

I'm not affiliated with the MAC in any way.

There's some really rare new policies from the MAC in this program like removing the land/territory, economics, and culture from the national question because they would wrongly split nations.

Nobody else in the world is talking about this stuff. To dismiss it completely is foolish. Anyone not considering these ideas after reading them doesn't know a good idea when they see one.
I know of and actually quite like MAC. They run the reddit.com/r/EuropeanSocialists subreddit.

In my humble opinion they lean right opportunist in regard to the National Question leading them into the morass of 'nation' fixation and even questions of race (which OP seems to be and other MAC members have like Frogsknect who once put out a tweet about "mixed race people not faring well as they could not be loyal to their nation").
This opportunism is almost forgiveable with todays cosmopolitanism but it's a deviation from Stalinist centre either way.

For instance they claim that England, Wales and Scotland are nations and lean in this favour. Yet reputable Marxist-Leninist orgs have always consistently held that these peoples never reached the classification of "Nation" and by the time Nationhood was achieved in Britain there existed the British nation
Clearly, Britain has, for the most part, a common culture. There are, it is true, immigrants to Britain who have brought with them aspects of other national cultures. In Scotland and Wales, too, cultural elements exist which appear to be distinctively 'national' in character. In the case of Scotland, one thinks of Highland dress, of the bagpipes and of such Highland sports as tossing the caber. In the case of Wales, one thinks of the harp and the Eisteddfodds. It must be noted, however, that these 'national' elements in the cultures of Scotland and Wales are of significance mainly in the rural areas, and that they are survivals from the past which are declining in importance in relation to the culture of Scotland and Wales as a whole.

For the most part, therefore, Britain has a common culture.

To sum up: the communities of Scotland, Wales and England do not possess all the essential characteristics which go to make up nations, and so do not constitute separate nations. The community of Britain, however, does possess all the essential characteristics which go to make up a nation. Despite, therefore, the existence of declining survivals of pre-national languages and cultures in Scotland and Wales, Britain constitutes a nation, a single nation. Bill Bland for Commnist Party Alliance
Bill Bland even points out:
Scotland, Wales and England have been welded together for many centuries. As early as the 12-13th centuries:
And CPGB-ML follow similar line

http://www.lalkar.org/article/624/the-n ... n-scotland

This opportunist line is present in most of their works (from the question of "Black nation" to British nation etc) and in Britain the only groups that present the "Scottish/Welsh" nations as "progressive" are trotskyite renegades.
And when reading through their theoretical works they parrot the lie of "300 years of national oppression" like Tommy Sheridan of the Scottish Socialist Party (SSP)

Or Neil Davidson who does away with Marxism altogether
“rely either on objective or subjective criteria”, adding for good measure that there is “… no agreed Marxist position and little help to be gained from Marx or Engels themselves”, for a precise definition of the concept is not to be found in “their writings on the national question” (Davidson, p.8).
But despite these criticisms I still like them as they are the only communist groups that aren't footsoldiers for either the Democratic Party/Labour Party or the slew of Bourgeois NGO's like Rockefeller Foundation, Ford Foundation, Soros Open Society Foundation etc. and pushing back against the Pederast depopulation agenda
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Post by AgentSonya »

Oh :depressed

Sounds like they need to study this
internationalism.jpg
internationalism.jpg (67.23 KiB) Viewed 2689 times
This kind of (white) national focus was bound to rebound after decades of the incorrect line of a "black nation" and was it's logical conclusion of that nonsense

On Britain, Stalin was pretty explicit ...
"The British, French, Germans, Italians and others were formed into nations at the time of the victorious advance of capitalism and its triumph over feudal disunity.

But the formation of nations in those instances at the same time signified their conversion into independent national states. The British, French and other nations are at the same time British, etc., states. Ireland . . . did not participate in this process".
(Josef V. Stalin: 'Marxism and the National Question', in: 'Works'. Volume 2; Moscow; 1952; p. 313-14).
"The British, French, Germans and Italians were formed into nations at the time of the victorious development of capitalism and its triumph over feudal disunity".
(Josef V. Stalin: 'The Immediate Tasks of the Party in the National Question', in: 'Works', Volume 5; Moscow; 1953; p. 16).
"In the West -- in Britain, France, Italy and, partly, Germany -- the period of the liquidation of feudalism and the constitution of people into nations coincided, on the whole, with the period in which centralised states appeared".
(Josef V. Stalin: Report on the Immediate Tasks of the Party in the National Question, 10th Congress of the RCP (B), in: 'Works', Volume 5; Moscow; 1953; p. 33).
"Hence the necessity for a stubborn, continuous and determined struggle against the dominant-nation chauvinism of the 'Socialists' of the ruling nations (Britain, France, America, Italy, Japan, etc."
(Josef V. Stalin: 'The Foundations of Leninism', in: 'Works', Volume 6; Moscow; 1953; p. 152).
"Such nations must be qualified as bourgeois nations. Examples are the French, British, Italian, . . . American and other similar nations".
(Josef V. Stalin: 'The National Question and Leninism', in: 'Works'. Volume 11; Moscow; 1954; p. 353).
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Post by Charlotte »

You see it flow directly from this work for instance
Immigrants who want to stay should assimilate into the closest nation they can identify with. For example a white Russian immigrant who learned English as a second language would assimilate into the Anglo-English Nation. Most communists believe the Black-English Nation is a separate nation. Stalin, who beat the original Nazis, supported the Black Belt Republic in the 1930s. Even the multinational communist parties in the U.S. have this in their programs under self-determination. If the Black-English Nation exists then the Anglo-English Nation exists. So it shouldn't be surprising, it’s common.
Stalin made no such claim on the Black Belt.
This is how we make things right for all nations. We encourage all nations inside the U.S. to form their own separate communist parties and contact us to form an alliance. This is internationalism, separate independent nations/parties working together. from your pdf
In fact his main criticism of US communist parties were that "blacks were the most oppressed, why doesn't your party have more of them in your party". So in matter of organising you are against Stalin when the characteristics of a black 'nation' were far more pronounced.
“According to Hall, the little group of five Negroes (Otto Hall, and four other Negroes-ed) had not been at the Far Eastern university in Moscow more than a week when Stalin sent for them…The group was taken to the Kremlin…KARL RADEK who knew enough English to serve as interpreter was present…They drank tea and talked informally for several hours. Stalin held forth: ‘The Negroes represented the most oppressed section of the American working class. Therefore the American party should have more Negroes than whites. Why weren’t there more Negroes in the American party?” (Draper; Ibid; p. 334).
Even the comintern at the time, ran by revisionist traitors like Zinoviev/Bukharin etc were forced to concede on the supposed "Black Belt" that
“The ‘Black Belt’ is not in itself either economically or politically such a united whole as to warrant its being called a special colony of the United States.”
(PS ECCI; Degras Vol 3; Ibid; p.129).
This is wrong. This excerpt by Lenin is in fact for a Black Nation, and an Anglo Nation.

Lenin is stating that capitalism itself is smoothing out national differences because it's rapidly advancing, i.e. becoming more wealthy. The high pay is making people integrate into a multinational country. Once the high pay runs out, these nations will not want to stay together anymore.

And the mere mention of "national differences" states that these groups are indeed separate nations.
By Lenins time the Blacks still held some characteristics of a nation. By now though those differences have been smoothed out into the "American nation".
And if Lenin considered this at the time of writing Statistics and Sociology
in which vast national differences are speedily and fundamentally, as nowhere else in the world, smoothed out to form a single ‘American’ nation.”
Then you need only extrapolate the pace and fundamental change in USA since this writing and must admit the Black Nation has been all but assimilated into the American nation by the vast social change since
The integrationists who attack any sort of separatism are counter revolutionaries working for the imperialists. They attack Anglo-English people and call them colonizers to try to make them feel guilty about the crimes of their ancestors. It's idiotic reasoning trying to hold someone accountable for things they didn't personally do. And it’s not like hundreds of millions of people can just up and leave, there's nowhere for them to go.
Agree but the landback retards in USA are just another strand of American ultra left opportunism. The native populations are a miniscule population that should be allocated land and living space but the idea 330 Americans are going to all move back to Ireland (Kek, joke about Americans all claiming they're Irish) is a joke
US leftoids do everything except build a real movement with the masses
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Post by Charlotte »

JoeySteel wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:38 am
I know of and actually quite like MAC. They run the reddit.com/r/EuropeanSocialists subreddit.
What are you like :ltears
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Post by thenextstalin »

JoeySteel wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:38 am I know of and actually quite like MAC. They run the reddit.com/r/EuropeanSocialists subreddit.

In my humble opinion they lean right opportunist in regard to the National Question leading them into the morass of 'nation' fixation and even questions of race (which OP seems to be and other MAC members have like Frogsknect who once put out a tweet about "mixed race people not faring well as they could not be loyal to their nation").
This opportunism is almost forgiveable with todays cosmopolitanism but it's a deviation from Stalinist centre either way.
I'm not against assimilation, and neither is the MAC. But the fact is the Anglo nation is decreasing because of this. When people like Rishni Sunak don't marry Anglos it doesn't help the Anglo Nation. Stalin did say historically constituted matters, Anglos and Blacks were part of different historically constituted communities. I guess it depends on how far you go back with that, but the Anglos were a nation before slavery occurred that brought black people to the UK.
Charlotte wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:05 am You see it flow directly from this work for instance

Stalin made no such claim on the Black Belt.

In fact his main criticism of US communist parties were that "blacks were the most oppressed, why doesn't your party have more of them in your party". So in matter of organising you are against Stalin when the characteristics of a black 'nation' were far more pronounced.
I read that part during the negro question discussions with Haywood. Maybe supported the Black Belt is incorrect, I took another source at face value with that. But this program is still a draft so I can always edit it.

The logic follows though that if internationalism is only possible among independent nations, and if the Black-English Nation are a separate nation, then they need their own independent party. So Stalin was wrong about this anyway if we assume they're different nations. And to take it further, if Stalin followed his own national question, he would've split the multinational USSR up. The Russification down the road was no better than Nazism wanting to force German on all of Europe. If Stalin had split the USSR, most of Eastern Europe might still be communist today.

This also makes me wonder why this site was named Red Army. The multinational USSR was a mistake. If y'all are trying to resurrect it then you're only hurting communism. There is no social progress without national independence.
“The ‘Black Belt’ is not in itself either economically or politically such a united whole as to warrant its being called a special colony of the United States.”
The MAC line removed the economics part from the national question, so this doesn't matter. It makes sense, if a nation inhabit an empty land with no economy and call themselves a country. You just need land, which is what I'k proposing, giving every nation enough land.
Then you need only extrapolate the pace and fundamental change in USA since this writing and must admit the Black Nation has been all but assimilated into the American nation by the vast social change since
This is a good point. Most of the Black-English Nation have been assimilated in theory by the high pay. It's actually now the Anglo-English who wish to self-determine. Which is another point of confusion from the U.S. multinational communist parties, they're offering self-determination to everyone but the one nation that wants it.

As the money is drying up the Anglos are wanting to separate more and more. And there are still Black-English separatists, some are even capitalists like the Black Hammer Party.

It's a confusing situation. There are people from both sides that are fine living with each other, and there those that aren't fine with it, but the majority will change their minds in the future when money is no longer a factor. The easy thing is just to say that appearance matters as a nation divider. For all their arguing over the national/negro question I think Haywood was one of the only ones who could see this. I stated in the program there will always be chauvinism in multinational countries. It's not preventable, some new issues will always come up. Nations have to govern themselves.

Either way, no matter what you think of the appearance, the countries that speak English in the world need to be one country. There still is no "American Nation." Even if you guys don't agree with the appearance divider you should still try to promote combining countries that speak English together. It would help undermine U.S. imperialism and this idea that America is #1.

After all this, Stalin made some mistakes in his own application of the national question. But he did say that like anything, the national question can change/evolve. The MAC have attempted to change it by redefining historically constituted to mean common appearance. The prediction is that the U.S. will split in the end once the money dries up. If that happens then the MAC line about appearance being a nation divider will be proven right.

The easy thing for me is most of the U.S. communist parties believe the U.S. is multinational so I can play this up against them by forcing them to recognize Anglo self-determination. It's easy to point out their hypocrisy. For any people that don't believe it, reject even the language component and still think America is a nation, then you'll just have to wait and see.
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Post by Charlotte »

thenextstalin wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:40 pm The MAC line removed the economics part from the national question, so this doesn't matter. It makes sense, if a nation inhabit an empty land with no economy and call themselves a country. You just need land, which is what I'k proposing, giving every nation enough land.
I'll probably respond with more a bit later but wanted to point out what you are describing here is a pre-nation
2. HOW DOES A NATION DEVELOP?

The development of a community to nationhood proceeds through three fundamental stages:

The first stage is that of the tribe, based on a union of related clans. Tribalism is the characteristic form of social organisation under primitive communism.

As the tribal community disintegrates with the development of tools and techniques, tribes come together into federations and kingdoms; a common language, based on one of the tribal languages, emerges. This process leads to the development of the second stage of the development of a community, that of the pre- nation or nationality.

A pre-nation or nationality is a community based no longer on blood relationship, but on geographical location. It has a common language, a common territory and a common culture, but does not possess economic cohesion in the form of a common market. A pre-nation is the characteristic form of social organisation under slavery and feudalism.

With the development of capitalism within the framework of feudal society, the development of pre-national characteristics is accelerated and, alongside this, the process of establishing economic cohesion, a common market, throughout the territory of the pre-nation. This latter process transforms the pre-nation into a nation.
http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/marxism/Cl6.html

If your MAC group has removed the "economic" requirement of nation they have created (presumably for their chauvinist views) the description of a pre-nation.
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Post by thenextstalin »

If your MAC group has removed the "economic" requirement of nation they have created (presumably for their chauvinist views) the description of a pre-nation.
I think the MAC line is that if one person speaks a language that nobody else in the world speaks, then that person represents that nation. It's mostly based on language. I'm no expert on the micro specifics of their ideology though, you should ask them. My program is more based on a macro, top down approach.

The example for the removals they gave me personally was that countries like Korea would wrongly be split in two since they live a different culture, but it applies to economic life as well. DPRK is self-sufficient and not as developed, while the South is more developed but it's because they're benefitting from a parasitic economy that benefits from things like outsourcing. They're reliant on it. But the DPRK still tells their citizens that all of Korea is one nation. And they're correct, they speak Korean and have a common appearance, they should be one nation. So following Stalin's original national question would be wrong in this case.
Last edited by thenextstalin on Mon May 29, 2023 4:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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